I have a story I'd like to share that, while it doesn't make me proud to do so, I feel like I should comment on nonetheless.
Last night, I was helping out, along with one other well-geared guildie, in a 10-man Naxx run organized by another guildie solely for the purpose of gearing up his alt that had recently hit 80. This particular run was well organized, speedy, and had a relative minimum of time-wasting. We eventually made it to, and downed, Kel'thuzad within about three and a half hours, which is next to unheard of for a pug. It was an excellent run, even by the standards of most guilds. In my opinion, my guildie handled the job of raid leader with professionalism and competence while maintaining an air of fun and relaxation.
Our guildie managed to put together a fantastic raid that ran Naxx with ease, somehow convincing well-geared players to come out of boredom, badges, or the one item they still wanted. Our tanks were geared out, wearing 25-man Naxx gear as well as Ulduar gear. Part of our success was also attributable to our healers - both druids, one who was in full 10-man hardmode and 25-man Ulduar gear, the other had just dinged 80 the same day and was being escorted through by his more seasoned friend. Both were competent healers and got us through the majority of the instance without a scratch. We wiped once on Kel'thuzad due to an unfortunate Frost Tomb targeting the MT, but otherwise the run went smooth as butter.
The newly-minted 80 druid was also in here trying to gear up, and as a result, he and my guildie were the only ones to roll on most of the gear. And, aside from spellplate that nobody needed (as the only plate-wearers were Warriors), the majority of the gear that dropped was healing gear in some fashion with no competition for the pugged druid. We also had five pieces of tier gear drop, one of which nobody could use, but the others were rolled on by both the druid and my guildie. The druid won all four rolls.
Now, this irked me a bit, as the pugger was basically benefitting off of my guildie's willingness to let him come, despite being undergeared (very undergeared, in fact) and being in direct competition with him for the majority of the caster loot. One of the tier pieces, the chestpiece that dropped from Four Horsemen, the pugger very kindly gifted to my guildie after my guildie (rightly, I think) complained about losing the last two rolls for it and currently wearing a mid-70s chestpiece, compared to the pugger's level 80 gear. The next two tier pieces, both rolled, and my guildie lost those two rolls as well.
As the run went on, the pugger recieved at least two helms, a mainhand/offhand combo, boots, a neckpiece (possibly) and several other pieces of gear that immediately replaced the items he walked in wearing. My guildie received one piece of gear in all besides the chestpiece the pugger passed to him, in a run he organized, put together, and coordinated for that expressed purpose. The rest of the raid, all puggers except for three guildies including myself and the raid leader, were beginning to rumble a bit at the loot-whorishness of the pugger, but the guildie leading the raid quite correctly and fairly gave him all the gear he rolled on and won with little comment, whether my guildie needed it or not. By the end of the run, the pugged druid was in more than half epics, if you counted the tier pieces he recieved but had not turned in.
Fast forward to Kel'thuzad -- we down him on the second try with little trouble and the tier 7 headpiece drops for both our undergeared players along with the other loot. The pugger rolled on one of those pieces of loot (I think it was a cape) and recieved that, and then both rolled on the headpiece token. The pugger won that roll as well.
However my guildie had apparently had it by that point. He masterlooted the helm token to himself, explained that he couldn't let the pug druid take that piece of loot along with all of the other gear the druid had also won, pointed out that he had recieved two pieces of gear in all (and really, it was technically only one) compared to the pugger's 10 or so, and the rest of the raid voiced their agreement. The well-geared friend of the pugger in question said simply "wtf." and left the raid, followed by his friend.
Was this the right thing for my guildie to do?
Now, while some, including myself, would argue that my guildie was justified in looting that helm to himself, no one, not even my guildie could say it wasn't techinically "ninja-looting." Ninja-looting or not, after recieving at least two other helms and most of the other tier gear that had dropped, I think that pugger should really have passed on that last bit of loot. Most people, I think, would have at least considered passing on it, if not done so. Most people would also argue that the pug druid was a loot-whore through and through. But does that make what my guildie did right?
My take on it is that it might have been ninja-looting, but it was quite defensible ninja-looting, if there is such a thing. I wouldn't say it was the right thing to do by any stretch, but I understand my guildie's frustration and justification for doing so. The pugger was obviously taking advantage of the run my guildie had set up, having both phenomenal luck with drops and rolls, and phenomenal opportunity in having a geared-out raid run them thru Naxx immediately after hitting 80, not to mention having a raid leader that would actually accept them. I think many people, whether they have geared friends or not, would be extremely lucky to have that same opportunity, and in my opinion my guildie was gracious enough in letting him come, to say nothing of freely giving him all of the gear he rolled against him for and lost. While my guildie took advantage of the pugger at the end, in my opinion, the pugger was just as guilty of doing the same as my guildie was, and perhaps on a greater scale when you think about it.
Of course, most people don't care about the specifics of the gear involved--I mean, Naxx10 gear isn't even as important as the VoA mammoth to most people, and you hear of that mammoth getting ninja'ed all the time. So let's turn this incident into an ethical and moral dilemma:
In this situation, what would you have done?
Wednesday, July 29, 2009
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Hmm, I would have made a rule in the beginning saying that there would be unlimited main spec rolls and then unlimited offspec rolls, but that main spec loot would be distributed as one per person until everyone who is rolling has won something, then second piece of loot until everyone who rolls has won two things, etc. If someone who was on the run that was only there for maybe one or two specific things wants to roll for something, they would obviously get the item since they had won nothing so far while the pugger and the guildie had already won several things.
ReplyDeleteIf the run were already happening, I would have, as the guildie (not the raid leader guildie who needed the gear) spoken up before KT and ask if the druid would kindly let your guildie have the head tier token if it dropped, since he had won so many things already and your guildmate had not won anything aside from a couple of pieces of gear the whole run. Your guildmates on the run would back you up - GUILT the druid into agreeing to pass ahead of time, in other words.
But looting it to himself after the roll, unfortunately, is straight out ninja-looting, as fair and justified as it seemed. That druid was being a loot-whore, but there were no rules against that practice established ahead of time and it was not fair to the druid for the RL to make that rule after the druid had fairly won the roll.
(Though of course, I would certainly put the word out in your guild not to group with the druid or the friend of his again, since they both did not see the fairness of passing for the sake of your raid leader.)
The druid was clearly a loot whore and a turd of a human being, I really feel for your guildie. In the same situation I might have reacted in the same way by the end, but that kind of behaviour simply lowers you to the druid's level.
ReplyDeleteThis might have been easily avoided with a few loot rules up front. It's unlucky they shared tokens, but at least some of your drops should have had a clear dps/healer focus (I can't believe nothing dropped with either hit or mp5 on it?) which should have been a no-brainer.
As a cold outsider, I'd say your guildie should have just sucked it up and moved on.
Included in the loot the druid got were mp5 gear. If anything with mp5 or an excess of spirit dropped (and the MH/OH, one of the two helms) as well as a couple other pieces) the druid got it by default.
ReplyDeleteThe only opposed rolls between the RL and the druid happened on a cloth belt, I think a cloak, and the four tier pieces. The RL lost all the rolls except the one on the belt.
I have to agree with "D" and Merlot. Your guildie broke the rules that he himself had decided upon. The druid might be considered a loot-whore, but he did follow the rules. I suppose you could say that there's an unwritten rule saying that "you should be considerate of others while rolling", and that your friend only tolerated him up until that point. Though even if you think this way, your guildie gave the druid a reason to believe everything would continue as before by staying silent.
ReplyDeleteThe best way to avoid this is to have rules that don't depend on kindness, but having someone else suggest letting your friend have the helm before killing the boss whould be a tolerable solution like "D" suggested. He shouldn't have let the druid roll if he wasn't going to give him a real chance at winning.
I'm not saying that the druid wasn't a loot-whore and a leach, but your guildie messed up and should have accepted the consequences. That's what I consider to be fair.
Honestly, if I'd been in the raid and observed this episode, I'd probably make a mental note to avoid both your guildie and the druid. None likes a raid leader who don't follow their own loot rules, regardless of how well he leads the raid.
Communists everywhere. :-)
ReplyDeleteMore seriously, people get way too hung-up on fair in this game. There is nothing so fair as a /roll and to get butt-hurt over losing rolls is silly. To assume that someone else has the same concept of fair as you without discussing it with them is to expect mindreading. Your guildie set the loot rules first with his silence at the beginning of the run and second by continuing to permit the pug to roll on gear through-out. I know your guildie thought he was being generous. The pug probably just thought he was being normal or fair within the scope of the loot rules.
Especially with pug runs, if you have a limit on gear, say so up front, before the pug is saved to the instance. If you want to set an expectation of the definition of loot-whore, do so, again up front and before the pug is saved so you are all on the same page. Since you did not, I think that, while greedy, the pug was fully in the right to expect to roll on, and recive if he won, loot applicable to his class and spec. To take the helm at the end was ninja-ing, plain and simple. In fact, as your guildie allowed open roles right up until the end, you basically changed the loot rules on the fly then and there by fiat.
Now, I fully sympathize with your point of view and I think you were very generous to have a run where you allowed unlimited open-roles until you changed your mind at the end, which I think was a capricious and wrong response to what was your guildy's mistake. That the pug was greedy and clearly demonstrated he doesn't think the way you do says don't play with him anymore.